tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7545210782126483136.post3749553658916320224..comments2024-01-24T05:13:06.164-08:00Comments on Not Your Usual Suspects: LEARNING TO BE MEAN OR, NO MORE MRS. NICE GUYSusanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11286314155783213006noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7545210782126483136.post-44621827211340966992011-03-24T19:54:10.408-07:002011-03-24T19:54:10.408-07:00Oh my, Barb... we could do role playing! I get to ...Oh my, Barb... we could do role playing! I get to try out the "wicked" role!Marcelle Dubéhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18164965676254630066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7545210782126483136.post-52261593337226595762011-03-24T18:23:58.309-07:002011-03-24T18:23:58.309-07:00Marcelle--this is surely a perfect topic for a wee...Marcelle--this is surely a perfect topic for a week-long writer's retreat! Or at least a workshop. Or a convention panel...if you're coming to Keycon, I'd be in the front row taking notes on how to not be nice.Barb Galler-Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10720209919325933945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7545210782126483136.post-33276372129163676202011-03-24T18:23:40.278-07:002011-03-24T18:23:40.278-07:00Marcelle--this is surely a perfect topic for a wee...Marcelle--this is surely a perfect topic for a week-long writer's retreat! Or at least a workshop. Or a convention panel...if you're coming to Keycon, I'd be in the front row taking notes on how to not be nice.Barb Galler-Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10720209919325933945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7545210782126483136.post-12681013109415944712011-03-22T12:12:07.226-07:002011-03-22T12:12:07.226-07:00Hi Louisa! Lovely to "see" you. Thanks f...Hi Louisa! Lovely to "see" you. Thanks for adding to the discussion. I doubt I'll ever become truly evil (although, under the right circumstances...). I can't stand reading about serial killers, or child abusers, etc. If I can't do that, how can I explore the depths of human possibility?<br /><br />Maybe the problem is that I fear going into that darkness. What if I can't find my way out?Marcelle Dubéhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18164965676254630066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7545210782126483136.post-65525362953245123192011-03-22T08:07:11.358-07:002011-03-22T08:07:11.358-07:00Hey, Marcelle!
Interesting discussion! To throw i...Hey, Marcelle!<br /><br />Interesting discussion! To throw in another POV -- the reason I write "bad guys" in the first place is to help understand the "why." Writing from the evil insides of someone's dark mind is not something I enjoy when the storyline is a serious one. Part of being a writer, though, is being able to put yourself in your character's shoes, think their thoughts, act on their instincts and desires. Yes, we all have our "dark side." I'm thankful every day that I'm not like that and celebrate all the goodness that surrounds me when I come up out of that hole. That way I can continue to do research, to find out what motivates someone to dismember another human being or molest children in unspeakable ways and then carry that motivation into a character so that character comes across as authentic and not end up feeling like slime lives in my brain instead of a human.<br /><br />I know you don't intend to become "evil" (and sometimes "Evil" can be fun, don't get me wrong :<). My point is you do not have to become someone you are not in order to write truly nasty characters. You've got the bones. From my perspective - all you need to do is give yourself permission to write from inside the bad guy's mind instead of your own.<br /><br />Miss you!<br />LouisaLouisanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7545210782126483136.post-18918645892072418172011-03-17T12:14:57.423-07:002011-03-17T12:14:57.423-07:00Julie, thank you for your thoughtful, thought-prov...Julie, thank you for your thoughtful, thought-provoking post. You're right, of course. We do carry many possibilities within us. <br /><br />I know that I have a capacity for violence if I need to protect someone I love. Or if I'm pushed too far. And I've had several instances in my life where the crocodile brain kicked in and I reacted completely instinctively, with no societal "veneer" involved.<br /><br />But otherwise, I always play "nice."<br /><br />I think good writers can access their inner multitudes more easily. It's something I'm working on.Marcelle Dubéhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18164965676254630066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7545210782126483136.post-6475085524883426682011-03-17T09:51:44.756-07:002011-03-17T09:51:44.756-07:00I probably have a strange take on this, but it par...I probably have a strange take on this, but it parallels what a lot of people have written already, especially in regards to the inner critic and the niceness factor being more of a social veneer. I am like you in real life, but in fiction I can embrace my inner serial killer. I guess I would agree it's a lot like acting, really, but I also view acting this way, too...everyone has the potential to be everything, if they're really being honest with themselves. I don't mean that in a cynical, "people are bad" way at all, I just truly believe that people are incredibly complex and are pulled and pushed by numerous drives and neuroses and issues, some biological and some purely social. Compound that with the fact that there are a lot of damaged people running around, in both minor and major ways. <br /><br />I personally never believe people when they say they would never hurt someone...or even kill another person. I've been in situations where people were panicking and/or their lives were in danger and you wouldn't believe the crazy things "nice" people do at those times (and the incredibly heroic/brave things they do, too). <br /><br />So yeah, as hokey as it might sound, I think it's about embracing all parts of who you are in your potentiality...legally, as someone said above. :) In that sense, writing can also bring you to understand yourself in a fuller sense, as a more multi-faceted human being who, "there but for luck, upbringing, etc..." walks you. <br /><br />I actually think that's healthy...or healthier than repression anyway...in that it's more honest. We all have the tendency to be struggling, angry, mean, selfish, brutal people. We choose not to be for a number of different reasons, including compassion, empathy, social acceptance and so forth...but I can always imagine scenarios where I could turn into that (try going without food for a week...your whole view on what's "nice" might change pretty drastically). Or, conversely, try seeing someone you love with a gun to their head. It would make you view your capacity for violence differently, I would imagine. So my advice would be, go deeper, in terms of yourself.<br /><br />So I have now supplied the "woo-woo" component to this discussion. :) <br /><br />I would also say have fun with it, though - it's a blast playing with this stuff in writing. I think I really would be a repressed fruitcake if it wasn't for my writing anyway. It gives me permission to have as I've heard it said "an abundance of feeling" without worrying it will have negative consequences apart from the occasional squelchy factor for myself and/or readers.<br /><br />juliejc andrijeskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02374203579069155320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7545210782126483136.post-67332717049389051232011-03-17T08:10:33.005-07:002011-03-17T08:10:33.005-07:00Shirley & Toni -- I never realized. It's n...Shirley & Toni -- I never realized. It's not that I'm not mean enough... I just live in the wrong place!Marcelle Dubéhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18164965676254630066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7545210782126483136.post-4698394751617338882011-03-17T05:27:36.004-07:002011-03-17T05:27:36.004-07:00LOL @ sending the dish back Shirley. I thought the...LOL @ sending the dish back Shirley. I thought the same!!! She's already mean enough :DToni Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08348843511453338339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7545210782126483136.post-8356726470856909752011-03-17T04:00:03.779-07:002011-03-17T04:00:03.779-07:00You send a dish back? Wow. We Brits would risk foo...You send a dish back? Wow. We Brits would risk food poisoning rather than send a dish back. :)<br /><br />I love making my characters suffer so long as I can make everything right at the end.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05938431508430656253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7545210782126483136.post-7858001763659799112011-03-16T19:20:32.127-07:002011-03-16T19:20:32.127-07:00I can see your villain trembling in his boots, Mau...I can see your villain trembling in his boots, Maureen...Marcelle Dubéhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18164965676254630066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7545210782126483136.post-85442967014375715642011-03-16T18:42:58.778-07:002011-03-16T18:42:58.778-07:00You've inspired me, Marcelle. I think in the n...You've inspired me, Marcelle. I think in the next scene I write I'm going to have my heroine shoot spitballs at the bad guy. :)Maureen A. Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16432964748852427405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7545210782126483136.post-26805687205601126312011-03-16T18:13:57.178-07:002011-03-16T18:13:57.178-07:00Betsy, sounds like a bit of reverse psychology at ...Betsy, sounds like a bit of reverse psychology at work!<br /><br />And I like a snarky character, too, Julie, only they usually end up being the good guys.<br /><br />Taryn, you don't fool me. You're just a hopeless romantic!Marcelle Dubéhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18164965676254630066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7545210782126483136.post-2247741102622893862011-03-16T16:45:48.841-07:002011-03-16T16:45:48.841-07:00Oh, I don't mind torturing them a little.
As...Oh, I don't mind torturing them a little. <br /><br />As long as I can heal them up, too, and give them a nice HEA!Taryn Kincaidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11130206764352777367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7545210782126483136.post-23523672019998210502011-03-16T16:43:26.874-07:002011-03-16T16:43:26.874-07:00I like when characters are more snarky than downri...I like when characters are more snarky than downright mean. I often add a bit of humor to it and soften it a bit. :)Julie Moffetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08336467844360987305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7545210782126483136.post-47501481091303008952011-03-16T16:04:58.063-07:002011-03-16T16:04:58.063-07:00I'm with you, Marcelle. Sometimes my character...I'm with you, Marcelle. Sometimes my characters are so sweet they just irritate the heck out of me. Which is kind of good because then I want to beat them up :)Betsy Horvathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06074417292321186230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7545210782126483136.post-67635546249497294722011-03-16T14:25:17.255-07:002011-03-16T14:25:17.255-07:00Hi Russ! Good advice, but I can't imagine I wi...Hi Russ! Good advice, but I can't imagine I will ever write a Paterson villain. Ever. When I said I wanted to be more evil, I didn't mean more EVIL!Marcelle Dubéhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18164965676254630066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7545210782126483136.post-5380745971407941852011-03-16T13:28:25.295-07:002011-03-16T13:28:25.295-07:00Hi, Marcelle:
At a recent workshop I wrote a shor...Hi, Marcelle:<br /><br />At a recent workshop I wrote a short story which has the most nasty jerk you'd never want to meet as the hero. The 4 editors who read it hated the character, but still wanted to buy the story. I did this to stop being so "Canadian".<br /><br />Evil or bad characters do spice up a story and add depth. We all know people (yes, even Canadians) who we don't like. When I think of those people I exaggerate them in my writing and usually get a very unpleasant character the reader can dislike. <br /><br />The opposite is true for the protagonist. You have to ensure the character is not too nice so much so they are perceived as stupid or naive.<br /><br />It's always a challenge to determine when you've gone far enough with a character or too far.<br /><br />Read a James Paterson novel some time to see how nasty a villain can be. I've winced more than once while reading his books.<br /><br />Anyway have fun and beat up a few characters for me will ya!<br /><br />Take care, <br /><br />RussAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7545210782126483136.post-12481014674463600012011-03-16T12:47:02.643-07:002011-03-16T12:47:02.643-07:00Elise, I'm glad our reputation is safe. :-)Elise, I'm glad our reputation is safe. :-)Marcelle Dubéhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18164965676254630066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7545210782126483136.post-30396336452723306972011-03-16T12:34:22.158-07:002011-03-16T12:34:22.158-07:00That's good advice, Mark. And I do have proble...That's good advice, Mark. And I do have problems with my internal editor. The only way I've been able to deal with the bugger is to write as fast as I can, thus circumventing it. Unfortunately, I'm a pantser, which means lots of pauses as I try to figure out, "Okay, now what?" That's when the Evil Internal Editor works his mischief. (Yes, my internal editor is male.)Marcelle Dubéhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18164965676254630066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7545210782126483136.post-29819175843688185532011-03-16T11:46:44.722-07:002011-03-16T11:46:44.722-07:00We now know the nice Marcelle--I look forward to m...We now know the nice Marcelle--I look forward to meeting the meanie. And yes, Canadians are lovely. While on vacation, in Canada, we stood under a tree to avoid the rain and a perfect stranger offered to drive us to our hotel.Elise Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12111849185666548945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7545210782126483136.post-54774047212400590492011-03-16T11:27:29.190-07:002011-03-16T11:27:29.190-07:00Thea, you must have interesting dreams! I think yo...Thea, you must have interesting dreams! I think you're onto something with the journaling idea. And I have to admit that getting angry has resulted in some pretty fine fiction. Disturbing, yes, but also some of the best stuff I've done. <br /><br />Robert, you empower me! I will embrace my niceness as a cover for my evilness. So, if my characters don't have to suffer, can they at least have conflict?Marcelle Dubéhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18164965676254630066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7545210782126483136.post-83125643164014769442011-03-16T11:17:44.153-07:002011-03-16T11:17:44.153-07:00Amanda, I'm pretty much a pantser, but I think...Amanda, I'm pretty much a pantser, but I think you've got a good point there about working out at least some aspects of my characters on paper ahead of time. And much as I tease Karen, she also has a good point about asking, "What's the worst thing that could happen?"Marcelle Dubéhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18164965676254630066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7545210782126483136.post-64552917491341751632011-03-16T11:17:13.437-07:002011-03-16T11:17:13.437-07:00It's funny, even though I have this problem in...It's funny, even though I have this problem in real life, I don't often have it in my fiction. Maybe that's where my darker side pops its head up. I'm sometimes a little taken aback myself by the stuff that comes out of my keyboard.<br /><br />I'm not sure your problem is as much a good vs. evil thing as it is a common writing roadblock that rears its head in many different ways: Namely, the difficulty of turning off your internal editor (some people call it the "internal censor") while you are writing. The evil old int-ed is a millstone around your neck when you're trying to let your subconscious roam free. <br /><br />Worrying about spelling, grammar, fonts, formatting, propriety, political correctness, non-political correctness or what your characters are feeling while you are composing your story is your internal editor trying to distract you and pull you out of the creative, "letting-go" state. <br /><br />I don't have a magic solution for this, but I suggest simply the word "later!" You're not ignoring typos or impropriety or your characters' feelings, you're just putting them off till later.Mark S.http://www.northguard.com/mbsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7545210782126483136.post-43230739899505286292011-03-16T11:02:48.470-07:002011-03-16T11:02:48.470-07:00Barbara, I'm a terrible actress. My face tells...Barbara, I'm a terrible actress. My face tells you everything I'm feeling, all the time. A terrible disadvantage. However, I'm willing to try anything.<br /><br />Erastes, can I come over to your house and learn at your feet? :-)Marcelle Dubéhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18164965676254630066noreply@blogger.com